Residential Schools for Dalit girls in India - Why isn't it the same as the Indian residential schools for Indigenous people in Canada?

The next interview will be posted in a while, but in the meantime I wanted to comment on recent articles in the Globe and Mail about a school set up for Dalit girls in India by a nun, Sudha Varghese. This school is set up as a residential school to help Dalit - or so-called 'Untouchable' - girls break from a cycle of hard labour, poverty, extreme isolation, lack of education and early marriage. The school is meant to empower, educate and give health and opportunities to girls. Sudha Varghese and Stephanie Nolen, the journalist who covered the story, of the school hosted a live chat to answer questions from viewers. Except for one offensive and offended reader from India who felt that 'Untouchables' had 'ruined' India (?), all other readers were suitably impressed by Ms Varghese's initiatives and wanted to contribute in some way. I was struck by several things both in the project itself and the content of the dialogue.

The first thing that occurred to me was the concurrence of media stories about the residential school system set up in Canada for Indigenous people (known as Indian residential schools) and this story. June 11 is the anniversary of the 2008 Indian Residential School Apology delivered by the Prime Minister of Canada, Stephen Harper, and so there was once again media coverage of the individual and systemic impacts of residential schools on Canada's Indigenous peoples. Many of the abuses perpetrated on children by staff in Indian residential schools were in line with the types of abuses that occur within any total institution, where there are vulnerable residents who are isolated from a broader social matrix, and there is complete control over their daily existence. In this respect, the residential schools set up by Sister Varghese have a similar structure as the Canadian residential schools, as well as many other total institutions where abuses have occurred. Granted, the residential school system in Canada was a tool of forced assimilation which the schools in India don't seem to be. However, I wonder if there are any protections preventing the schools in India from becoming abusive environments when the structure of the school is very similar to Indian residential schools in Canada. What prevents these 'total institutions' in India from becoming places where vulnerable children are taken advantage of, abused and exploited like the children were in residential schools in Canada?

I do not doubt that Sister Varghese herself is an upright individual. But individuals die, they move on, and they cannot be everywhere at once. Over and over again, we have seen that total institutions for children and other vulnerable sectors of our society are structurally designed for control, and control and isolation too often leads to sexual and physical abuse. What happens when the good people running the institution are not there?

I was also struck by the complete lack of analysis and comparison to the Indian residential schools system among readers in Canada. Is it because India is so far away? Is it because the children are perceived to be in some way qualitatively different from the children here? It often seems to me that substandard conditions in other countries are often perceived by Canadians to be on some hugely different scale than substandard conditions here. Thus a remedy that is not suited for us, may be suitable for those who are perceived to be much worse off. I am not sure why we have this myth or delusion. Perhaps it is the self-story about the 'first world' and our views that collectively we are all healthy, wealthy and wise while those in the 'third world' are not. To me, this is a disturbing self-perception and world-view, especially given the level of poverty in many Canadian Indigenous communities.

The third major thing that hit me was that the charitable impulse tends to reinforce this myth. It is somewhat easier to send money to another country and read a story that provides a sense of accomplishment. It may be that readers are tired of, or don't believe that the situation in Canada is the same. People may think that somehow the claims of Indigenous people here are inflated and they would rather put their efforts someplace else. Or, it is too difficult to address the complexity of land claims, treaty claims, clean water, underemployment, lack of housing and other human rights and poverty issues that we face here.

The donor-recipient relationship is not always a good one. As I have mentioned before in this blog, I believe that charity is a very contested practice, or at least it should be. It has obvious positive impacts both on the donor and recipient, but I have mentioned that it can also achieve opposite political results if it removes pressure from the state to provide basic human needs and common goods such as clean water, access to food, personal security and other things. Another negative impact is the tendency to put resources where the story is new and exciting and well-told, as opposed to where there has been an assessment of needs, a good analysis of policy and delivery options, and a decision made by someone who must answer for that decision.  In other words, sympathetic stories of small initiatives result in funds for recipients, whereas 'unsexy' policy and program initiatives that have broader application can be cut with little public attention drawn to them. Less attractive, but perhaps more needy recipients may end up suffering. Needy people in regions where we are not politically sympathetic may also not get much needed assistance. Is this ethical practice? I am not sure....

Inter-Indigenous Online Resource - Interview with Pauline Sackaney

This post is part of a larger online project that shares the positive and non-violent actions of Indigenous  people in different regions who have focused on overcoming the negative effects of colonization. The interviewees speak about the issues they were focused on, the approaches they took, tools/strategies they used, and they provide some insights about what they learned throughout the process. 
  

Specific situations may differ, but community members in one region or country may find that there is something to be gained from reading the first-hand experiences of people in other Indigenous communities. People who have initiated some positive change in their own life, their family or their communities may have something to share with people in other Indigenous communities who are coming up against a similar challenge.

The interviews are not heavily edited, and this resource is intended to reflect the experiences and opinions of the interviewees as faithfully as possible. The experiences and opinions of interviewees belong to them. 

If you have an experience that fits within this project, please email me at info@thelawofpeace.org to set up an interview.

INTERVIEW WITH PAULINE SACKANEY

Name of Interviewee:  Pauline Sackaney

Community :   Moosonee, Population 2500-3000 , 90% Indigenous

Geographic  Region/Location:  James Bay Coastal Region, Northern Ontario, Canada

Role in Community:  Courtworker,  Moosonee Native Friendship Centre, works with Indigenous youth, families in Court

Age: 49

Consent provided.

Q:  This project is a way for people to see how other people have overcome challenges to improve things in their lives or communities.  Can you describe for me something you have done that improved your life, or your community’s life, or a project you did that might be interesting for people to hear about?

A:  Okay well I think it started when I was twelve.  My sister and I decided to get in trouble because we were trying to get away from an abusive home, an alcoholic home. So we had heard friends say that if they got into trouble they would be sent away. My sister was only one year older.  We figured that if we got so many charges then we would be sent away. So we did.  We ended up going to a place called Cecile Facer - a secure custody facility. We were both in there and then when were done we didn’t want to leave, but they said our time was done and we would have to leave! They said that we were the only ones there that didn’t want to leave because everyone else was crying to get home. So we asked to be transferred to a group home then because they told us there was a Native girls’ group home in Sudbury, so we transferred there.  Then my sister went on to move to Sault Ste. Marie. We were split up.

Q:  How old were you then?

A:  Twelve turning thirteen.  I stayed in Sudbury for three years.  I stayed in a group home and then a few foster homes.  In one of the foster homes I met Loretta Okimaw who was my mentor and who was the courtworker at the Sudbury court.  I got to pick up a lot of stuff from her.  I was also in Residential School so that is part of my whole story too.  I went to foster homes, high school in Sudbury and then I moved back when I was sixteen - actually my sister came to get me, the one who left.  After that I met my husband.

Q:  Back in Moosonee?

Yes, at this point I was 16.  I was able to leave when I was 16 so …So I went back home and I stayed with my husband and we too had children at a young age.  I had my son when I was 17 going on 18 and we were drinking and stuff like that.  However, we didn’t drink when he (our child) was in the home.  My mom looked after him at her house.  We were starting to get into the same problems our parents used to have, you know…start to ….it was abusive at first, and then he changed pretty quick because I was going to leave.  Everything turned around after that, when I was going to leave. Well I did leave a few times.  But then I went back and nothing ever happened again, but we continued to drink! So then we had our second son 9 years later and we were still, still drinking….A few years after that there was a job posting in a newspaper, in Wawatay (newspaper), looking for Victim Witness Advocacy Worker for Thunder Bay for NAN Legal.  My husband brought the newspaper home because he was working at the airport at the time.   And he says, “Why don’t you apply for this?” and I said, “Would you really move to Thunder Bay??” And he said, “Yeah Of course I would!!”  So I said, “Okay I’ll try it just for a joke”…y’know, like I would just try it out, and sure enough I got it.  So we had to move in 2 weeks.  I was working at probation and parole at the time in Moosonee for the adult program. So I got the job and we moved, and we stayed in Thunder Bay for 2 years and I got to travel with the court.  That was the time I met Rupert Ross who is a Crown attorney who wrote a few books with regards to our native people.  So I got to work with him.  And I got to work on some special files which I won’t mention, but they were high profile.  That was the first time I ever did so it was really interesting and gave me a lot of insight. 

Oh, and before we moved to Thunder Bay, we both decided….I  said I am going to be doing a lot of flying and we can’t be consuming like, we can’t be drinking y’know…so  we decided to quit drinking and quit smoking.  And we did, the both of us! I said I can’t do it alone. It will only work if we do it together.  So we did!! And we have been sober since. So I am proud to say that was in 2000-2001 so we have been smoke-free and alcohol-free and we have three grandchildren.  But what I got from this experience and my past, being in residential school and going through everything that I did go through in my life, it has brought a lot of learning.  I always say I grew up when I was eight years old - really early. Really at a young age, because I was already watching children, watching siblings, and the neighbourhood kids who we used to babysit.

Q: You were a caregiver…

Yeah! Right from early.  I always said I was going to be a teacher of some sort. Not meaning I was ever going to get an education to be a teacher, however I do have my social work…

Q: But you have a teaching role!

Yeah.  The part I love the most is the advocacy work.  That’s what I do and I am good at it. I had to battle for a lot of stuff in my life. I figure that maybe someone isn’t as strong as I am, and I could help them in some way, shape or form.  I always say, if I can help one person, I am happy.  So that’s where I am.  I was on the Native Legal Services Board for over 12 years for sure.  I am presently a town councilor for our area.  So this is my first term…it’s a four year term. I am really enjoying it.  I think I have accomplished a lot in my time from my experience.

Q: That’s an amazing story! Coming from such a young age and moving forward to be such a productive member of society!

And I didn’t go back!  I left home at 12. And here I am at almost 50.

Q: And you are putting so much into the community and helping kids who may face similar things..

A:  I give my story to the young people, especially the youth if they want to hear it.  I know that young people today have a hard time being heard…like nobody wants to listen.  I try to tell them my story because I know what it is like, because nobody would listen to me either. I want them to know that I had to get into a lot of trouble to get to where I am.  It was a learning experience. I don’t consider it a negative experience because I learned from it.  And that’s the valuable lesson.

Q:  What do you think was your basic strategy? You told me your strategy was to figure out a way to get out by being bad to get care from someone else.  That’s an interesting strategy.

A: It’s for survival.

Q: After that, when you came back to Moosonee and you went through this long period with your husband of working through alcohol….at what time did it turn around for you?  Was it luck or some development?

I think it was when my husband was starting to get abusive…like because we both lived through abusive homes.  His parents were abusive, my parents were abusive, especially to their spouses.  We both lived through that.  His parents were a product of residential schools too.  They both attended, whereas my mom attended but not my dad.  And so when we were together, he seen all the violence so he was bringing it out on me in our first years together.   But it got to a point where I just said… one day I woke up and just said,” What am I doing? I am doing everything I said I wasn’t going to do because my parents did it. And here I am.  What am I doing??”  So that was it.  I said, “You know what? If you are going to continue to do that I don’t want no part of it. I’m leaving. I’m taking my son.”

Q: So it was just this realization and getting away from it?

Yeah! I just woke up like that and one day said that’s it, I’m tired of this. I said, I didn’t like the way I was living…like when I was growing up as a child. I knew how it felt. I didn’t want my children to see that. I didn’t want my son to see the kind of lifestyle that I grew up in.  Like when I was a kid, I was literally trying to help my mom when my dad was being abusive, like I would grab a broom and try to hit him and I was only five.  I didn’t want my kids to see that. I didn’t want that cycle to continue.  So I said well I am going to break that cycle by stopping drinking and smoking and stuff.  The abuse stopped 29 years ago when I first put my foot down.  The abuse was done. 

Q: So that was a real starting point for starting a strong relationship.

Yeah.

Q: When you were on this road of moving forward, did you ever find there was a major challenge or obstacle?

There were always obstacles.   My life was never, as an Aboriginal person…there have always been roadblocks for our Native people, I have found.

Q: Describe one, a major one…

School was a big one. When I was going to high school in Sudbury, I hung around a non-native girl. One day, I was telling her, I am going home to visit.  And uh, she made fun of that and in class said, “Where are you going, to a powwow?”  And everyone started laughing.  I went to her and stopped her.

Q: Did you really?

Yes I did.

Q: She was your friend.

Yeah! And I thought she was making fun of me. And I said, don’t you ever make fun of me again and I didn’t have her as a friend after that.  I got really offended when she said that. I thought she was a true friend, and then she made fun of my culture and I lost it.

Q: Do you often find people’s attitudes are obstacles?

Yeah, there’s always obstacles. Like even in our justice system I always say “Just Us” because the system doesn’t help our native people.    You can see it in the statistics.

Q: Did you find a time when you were not moving forward or you were sliding moving backward?

No, because when I was growing up I always knew that I was going to do something to change what I had been through. I wasn’t going to stand for it. I wasn’t going to keep quiet. I was tired of people telling me what to do. Being an Aboriginal person is hard on its own. And then living in a non-Native society was harder…I lived in the city for a few years. I lived in Thunder Bay, I lived in North Bay, I lived in Sudbury. I wouldn’t say it was a culture shock for me because I didn’t think of it like that.  But for a lot of our Aboriginal people it is for them. For myself, I didn’t find it like that.  However I always said that I would stand up for myself and then as I grew older I said I would assist people along the way. I said I wasn’t going to be a victim from Residential School. You know there’s a lot of people who are still victims.  But you know I got a lot of help along the way too. Like I am still on my healing journey and I have been since 2001.  I am a social worker, but I also have a counselor who I talk to too. Because we do need help too.  Our higher power – we keep the faith.  Plus I try to smudge as much as I can. I wish I could do it every day but that’s not possible because I don’t carry my bundle.

Q: So those are your strategies that help you…

Yes.  We keep our seven year old grandson and we got him into traditional dancing so he’s a grass dancer and he’s gonna be seven and he’s been dancing since he’s been one. He already seems to understand what the drumming is all about and the dancing. He’s really loving it.  And more so because we are sober now and able to enjoy our grandkids. We didn’t really get to enjoy our children because we were consuming at the time, we didn’t really pay much attention to the kids. 

Q: Now that you have looked back is there anything that you are particularly proud of and were there some side benefits that you didn’t expect?

I think I am proud of the fact that I survived residential school and all the stuff I went through.  I survived all that and it has shaped who I am as an adult. I look back at my life and all the trouble I went through helped me grow and made me a lot stronger.  I think by people listening to my story…I know they have similar stories but you can grab someone’s attention by that. 

It turned into a positive.  You can turn a negative into a positive.  I also think another thing was overcoming alcohol because that is really strong in our community. It has overtaken a lot of people and a lot of lives. I am really happen that my husband and I are sober. I am proud of that for sure.

Q: If someone wanted to do something similar….well you DO meet people in similar situations! Do you have a piece of advice or suggestions?

Not really.  I more or less like to tell my story and they can take whatever they want from it.  You know, like I try not to give advice.  I don’t judge people.   I’m not very judgmental and I like to show empathy. I’m very compassionate. I just like to listen to people. Tell my story and listen to what they have to say and they can take what they need.

I forgot to mention this story…there was a young girl testifying against her grandfather who had sexually abused her.  And she wasn’t a very loud speaker, like she didn’t like to talk. She was very quiet. I was trying to prep her to tell her story on the stand.  And I was prepping her and I was telling her, I said, “When you go up there, you are going to have the strength to speak. I’m gonna give you this rock and this is going to give you the strength to tell your story.  She truly believed that. She took the rock I gave her and she just spoke.  You know what? When I came out, I was literally drained. I literally gave her all my energy and everything. I have never experienced that again since. That was one time.  People look at me….That’s not even in this world.

Q: This is your gift.

Yeah, it was awesome.  If you have intense counseling it’s like that.  All of your energy is taken. It was very powerful. I didn’t even know how powerful it was until I came out.  That’s when the realization hit me and I said, Oh my goodness, I gave her all that.  When she was done she came to thank me she said thank you for giving me that rock. I said, that’s my gift to you. You can keep that and whenever you need it, you remember that rock. And that’s what she did.

So that was one of my stories.

Not everybody can experience that.  It doesn’t just happen. And I lot of people don’t believe it. 

Q: Thank you for the interview.